cycling Vs cooking

[Marca_ACME]

Hi Anthony, here I go!! ;)

I am changing all my old 400 l (100gal) system. Rigth now i´m finish the lighting hood, as you can see here:
http://www.todomarino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4769&page=1&pp=10

The next week I´ll begin with the sump and the other "small details" XD for the next 2 months, and I don´t know the way to introduce the live rock (not cured).

A) waiting to finish all the system, and cycling in the main tank.

B) cooking live rock in an other tank, saving cycling time

untill now i was curing the rock in the main tank (2 or 3 months) but i don`t kwon the advantages of cooking in an other tank.

Could you explain the diference between two options?
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TRADUCCION:
En resumidas cuentas, lo unico que pregunto es la diferencia entre hacer el ciclado de la roca viva en el tanque principal, o "cocinar" la roca en un tanque aparte

[Marca_ACME]

:yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]: :yb645[1]:

[Anthony Calfo]

it depends on what your long term goals are and your available time for the daily husbandry.

but my advice is that if you can provide above average husbandry (attention to skimming, regualr water changes, etc) and you want the best biodiversity... then cycle. Do not cook.

Only cook if you want fast reduction of the substrate to safe and usable (but less diverse) quality.

kindly,

Anthony :)

[iñigo]

porfi que alguien traduzca

[arrecifemadrid]

it depends on what your long term goals are and your available time for the daily husbandry.

but my advice is that if you can provide above average husbandry (attention to skimming, regualr water changes, etc) and you want the best biodiversity... then cycle. Do not cook.

Only cook if you want fast reduction of the substrate to safe and usable (but less diverse) quality.

kindly,

Anthony :)

Traduzco.

Depende de tus metas a largo plazo y el tiempo del que dispones para el cuidado diario.

Mi consejo es que si puedes proveer un cuidado por encima de la media (atención al esquimado, cambios de agua regulares, etc.) y quieres la mayor biodiversidad... entonces cicla. No cocines.

Solo cocina si quieres una rápida reducción del sustrato a una calidad segura y utilizable (pero con menos diversidad).

[Marca_ACME]

Hola Anthony, gracias.
por un lado pienso como tu, pero no obstante me parece un buen metodo para reactivar la roca que ha estado durante mucho tiempo en el acuario, y esta dando problemas con algas. Pienso que realmente matara gran parte de la biodiversidad de la roca, pero hay veces que es mejor asi.
Por otro lado, la unica diferencia entre un metodo y otro, es simplemente la iluminacion?? si esto es asi, y tratamos de mantener la mayor parte de biodiversidad haremos un proceso igual, pero manteniendo la iluminacion.
Ahora viene el tema de la maduracion del acuario, que no es otra cosa que madurar la roca e introducirla en el tanque. La idea que tengo pensada es la siguiente: ciclar o curar la roca en un tanque de 100l (con una bomba, luz ambiental, y sin skimmer)con algo de iluminacion para mantener la biodiversidad, y luego meterla en el acuario principal (entiendo que asi ya estaria suficientemente preparado) como para empezar a meter algun animal osea ciclado. El problema surge cuando todo lo que viene muerto o casi muerto en la roca empieza a degradarse en amonia, lo cual hace que los valores de este, suban en exceso, y llegen a matar la biodiversidad que estamos tratando de guardar. Por tanto seria conveniente durante el periodo de maduracion hacer cambios parciales de agua?


Hello Anthony, thanks.

I think so, but despite "cooking live rock" seems to me good method to reactivate the rock that are been during long time in the aquarium, and this giving problems with "bad" seaweed. I think that really it killed great part of the biodiversity of the rock, but sometimes is better.

On the other hand, the difference between curing and cooking, is simply lighting? if it is, and we tried to maintain most of biodiversity we will make the same process, but maintaining lighting. The problem arises when everything what comes dead or almost dead on the rock begins to degrade itself in amonia, raising to top values, and kill the biodiversity which we are trying to keep alive. What can we do now? wait till cero values or partial water changes to dilute the amonia, nitrite and nitrate

Now the subject comes from the maturation of the aquarium, the idea that I have thought is the following one: cycling or curing the rock in a different tank ( 100l or 25 gal ,with a pump, environmental light, and without skimmer) for 6 o 8 weeks to maintain the biodiversity. after that, transfer the rock to the main tank (I understand that in this way the main tank will already enought to support the first animals). am I in the wrong way??

[Anthony Calfo]

That is a very good point my friend - the specific issue of salvaging aged "problem rock" that has become contaminated so-to-speak from a maturation processes.

On this point I will say "yes," cooking may be beneficial here. But again it brings us back to the long term goals of the aquarium. Aged live rock becomes "exhausted" of biodiversity and buffering ability regardless of how good or bad (say "contaminated") it is. So my concern is that rejuvinating (cooking) aged rock does make it better, but not good enough.

It is very helpful to the system ecology to regularly and systematically replace portions of old live rock with new.

If I was faced with the reality that I needed to cook my live rock, I would do so... but I would do it in a vessel outside of my display and I would have ready, cured fresh new live rock to put in its place. The old rock? After I cooked it properly, I'd sell it off to someone that needed affordable base quality live rock for a big display or for a fish only tank where it would be more appropriate and still useful.

Maybe you can sell it for 1/3 to 1/2 of what you paid for it new, and you can put that money towards the new live rock...a nd you will have enjoyed it through its former lifespan in your tank for a slight savings. :)

[arrecifemadrid]

That is a very good point my friend - the specific issue of salvaging aged "problem rock" that has become contaminated so-to-speak from a maturation processes.

On this point I will say "yes," cooking may be beneficial here. But again it brings us back to the long term goals of the aquarium. Aged live rock becomes "exhausted" of biodiversity and buffering ability regardless of how good or bad (say "contaminated") it is. So my concern is that rejuvinating (cooking) aged rock does make it better, but not good enough.

It is very helpful to the system ecology to regularly and systematically replace portions of old live rock with new.

If I was faced with the reality that I needed to cook my live rock, I would do so... but I would do it in a vessel outside of my display and I would have ready, cured fresh new live rock to put in its place. The old rock? After I cooked it properly, I'd sell it off to someone that needed affordable base quality live rock for a big display or for a fish only tank where it would be more appropriate and still useful.

Maybe you can sell it for 1/3 to 1/2 of what you paid for it new, and you can put that money towards the new live rock...a nd you will have enjoyed it through its former lifespan in your tank for a slight savings. :)

Traducido:

Esa es una muy buena observación, amigo.- la cuestión de salvar roca envegecida "problemática" que se ha contamindo, por decirlo de alguna manera, por un proceso de maduración.

En este sentido diré "si", cocinar puede ser beneficioso. Pero de nuevo, nos devuelve a las metas a largo plazo para el acuario. Roca viva envejecida se "agota" de biodiverisdad y capacidad de buffer independiente de si está muy bien o mal (digamos "contaminada"). Así que mi preocupación es que rejuvenecer (cocinar) roca vieja la hace mejor, pero no los suficientemente buena.

Es una gran ayuda al sistema ecológico regularmente y sistemáticamente reemplazar porciones de la vieja roca con roca nueva.

Si yo me viese obligado a cocinar mi roca viva, lo haría... pero lo haría en un tanque aparte del acuario y procuraría tener listo roca viva curada para dejar en us lugar. La vieja roca? Después de cocinarla correctamente, se la vendería a alguien que necesitase roca base económica de calidad para un acuario grande o un acuario de solo peces dónde sería más apropiado y aún de utilidad.

Quizás la puedas vender por 1/3 o 1/2 de lo que pagaste por ella nueva, I puedes usar el dinero para roca viva nueva... y la habrás disfrutado durante su vida útil en tu acuario por un menor precio. :)

[d@mon]

Al hilo de esto

Cual seria la vida util de la roca viva en acuarios de arrecife segun tu experiencia.?????

Saludos

[gman0526]

Traduccion para Anthony:

" Following this thought.

What would be the useful lifespan of live rock in a reef tank according to your experience?

Greetings"


Voy a darte mi opinion, por lo que valga :D . Esta pregunta es muy subjetiva ya que la vida util de la piedra dependera mucho de las tecnicas de mantenimiento, poblacion y regimen de alimentacion al que se someta el acuario. Es completamente una situacion de caso a caso.

Translation

I'm going to give you my opinion, FWIW :D . This is a very subjective question since the lifespan of the rock is going to be highly dependant on maintenance techniques, stocking and feeding regimes that the aquarium is going to be subject to. It's an entirely case to case situation.

[Anthony Calfo]

I think it is best to exchange a small percentage (up to 20%) of your live rock every year with new live rock (fresh from ocean after curing). The "old" rock can be sold off for a discount to be used for filtration in a fish tank.

[d@mon]

Gracias Gman pòr la traduccion, :satisfech

Podrias traducir la respuesta de anthony,

Aunque creo entender que el cambia un 20% de la roca cada año.

Venga saludos Anthony y Gman :) :)

[Anthony Calfo]

thank you very much for the translation, my friend. My electronic translator did not make that post clear for me :D

Regarding the useful lifespan of rock in aquaria, yes... it is very subjective. To get maximum lifespan (many years... even over 10!) we presume you will have uninterupted optimal care including excellent water flow to prevent excessive solids from accumulating, suffocatting algal growths, regualr water changes and a lack of exploitative fishes or invertebrates exhuasting the rock. Unfortunately... most all aquarists suffer a lapse of at least one of these things and end up ruining or at least handicapping their live rock in time. Thus, in practical applications, its best to exchange a small portion of the rock each year.

But for most folks with resonably good care of their tanks... the live rock is good for more than a few years, likely so.

And if we are just talking about nitrifying ability and use as a living biological filter... then the rock is good much longer (over 5 years) presuming (again) good water flow/oxygenated water and no suffocating nuisance algae coatings.

kindly, Anthony

[Marca_ACME]

thank you very much for the translation, my friend. My electronic translator did not make that post clear for me

Regarding the useful lifespan of rock in aquaria, yes... it is very subjective. To get maximum lifespan (many years... even over 10!) we presume you will have uninterupted optimal care including excellent water flow to prevent excessive solids from accumulating, suffocatting algal growths, regualr water changes and a lack of exploitative fishes or invertebrates exhuasting the rock. Unfortunately... most all aquarists suffer a lapse of at least one of these things and end up ruining or at least handicapping their live rock in time. Thus, in practical applications, its best to exchange a small portion of the rock each year.

But for most folks with resonably good care of their tanks... the live rock is good for more than a few years, likely so.

And if we are just talking about nitrifying ability and use as a living biological filter... then the rock is good much longer (over 5 years) presuming (again) good water flow/oxygenated water and no suffocating nuisance algae coatings.

kindly, Anthony


Muchas por la traduccion, amigo. El traductor electronico no me deja muy claro lo que queria decir.

Con respecto a la vida útil de la roca en el acuario... efectivamente es muy subjetivo. Para obtener un aumento en la vida util de esta roca (durante muchos años.... incluso 10) entendiendo que le haremos un optimo e ininterrumpido mantenimiento incluyendo un excelente flujo de agua para prevenir el exceso de acumulacion de solidos, evitando el crecimiento de algas que asfixien la roca, cambios de agua regulares, y la ausencia de peces o invertebrados que agoten la roca. Desafortunadamente.... hay muchos acuaristas que no realizan estas labores de forma habitual, con lo cual arruinan o al menos agotan la roca de forma prematura. Debido a esto es mejor hacer cambios de pequeñas cantidades de roca de forma anual.
Pero para la mayoria de la gente, y con un cuidado relativamente normal..... la roca viva durara unos pocos años.
Y si estamos hablando de la capacidad nitrificante y su uso como filtro biologico vivo..... entonces la roca dura mucho mas tiempo (sobre 5 años) asumiendo otra vez un buen movimiento de agua, intercambio gaseoso, y la carencia de algas que recubran la roca.

saludos, Anthony.

[Marca_ACME]

thanks for your kindly support.

Which is the "best" way to cure my new "uncured live rock"??

[d@mon]

Gracias Acme Y Anthony :)

[Anthony Calfo]

for curing fresh (uncured) live rock by home aquarists... I like to keep it in a dimly lit bare-bottomed tank with the rocks suspended off the glass and well spaced apart. Very strong water flow is critical (60X range). Skim very aggressively and do large weekyl water changes for about one month. Test water quality at that time to determine if its stable (cured).

An even better way to cure rock (like some commercial wholesalers do) is to stack rock on grating or shelving and trickel saltwater over it like rain with a recirculating pump (but the rock is not fully submerged). The increased oxygen from exposure to atmospheric air is a tremendous assistence!

[arrecifemadrid]

for curing fresh (uncured) live rock by home aquarists... I like to keep it in a dimly lit bare-bottomed tank with the rocks suspended off the glass and well spaced apart. Very strong water flow is critical (60X range). Skim very aggressively and do large weekyl water changes for about one month. Test water quality at that time to determine if its stable (cured).

An even better way to cure rock (like some commercial wholesalers do) is to stack rock on grating or shelving and trickel saltwater over it like rain with a recirculating pump (but the rock is not fully submerged). The increased oxygen from exposure to atmospheric air is a tremendous assistence!

Traudcción:
Para los acuaristas domésticos curar roca viva fresca (sin curar)... me gusta mantenerla en un acuario sin sustrato con poca iluminación con las rocas suspendidas (separadas) del fondo y con espacio entre ellas. Circulación MUY fuerte es crítica (en el rango de 60x). Esquimar de maner muy agresiva y hacer cambios grandes de agua cada semana durante aproximadamente un mes. Medir la calidad del agua en ese momento para determinar si está estable (curada).

Una mejor forma aún (como hacen algunos mayoristas comerciales) es apilar la roca sobre una rejilla o baldas y usar una bomba de recirculación para dejar gotear agua salada sobre ellas como si fuese lluvia (la roca no está completamente sumergida). El aumento de oxigeno debido a la exposición al aire atmosférico es un gran ayuda.

[Arrakis]

Muy interesante, realmente intuia que la roca viva no era eterna pero hasta ahora comprendo la real duracion de la misma y los cuidados que demanda para seguir vital por mas años.

[Loftog]

Hello Anthony,

I have some questions about what you said:
Well, if we wanted to cure fresh live rock in our own aquarium using the comercial wholesalers process, building for it an "aquarium", What drip rate should provide?, The rock..should be illuminated? How long should be healing the rock in this system?

Greeting and thanks

[nelcadiz]

La roca usada entonces que.. a la basura? :S

[yano]

La roca usada entonces que.. a la basura? :S

Aqui tienes la respuesta: The "old" rock can be sold off for a discount to be used for filtration in a fish tank.

[nelcadiz]

Aqui tienes la respuesta: The "old" rock can be sold off for a discount to be used for filtration in a fish tank.

Qué chasco XD jajaja.